Hybrid Shocks

[Ballistic Eng]

After talking to the designer the main point of the hybrid was to produce an air shock that could be daily driven. We all know the tendencies of an air shock to have some quirky driving characteristics at speed. With the addition of the coils this allows you to better control the sprung mass of the vehicle. In doing this, you also increase the effective load carrying capacity of the air shock if you add the coil springs. So you still have the same ability to adjust the spring rate on the fly, but now the range of uses for such a product is increased by adding coils which will help prevent fade and excessively soft ride characteristics due to the very non-linear nature of the air shock. So we have

Coilovers
-Very tunable spring rate and damping, unmatched performance,
-Somewhat expensive initial cost and tuning costs

Hybrids
- Good performance on and off road, less expensive initial cost, easily tunable spring rate,
-Less tunable damping rate than a coilover, susceptible to fade if too much of the sprung mass is supported by N2 rather than coil springs

Air shocks
-Low initial cost, easily tunable spring rate
-Not recommended for daily driving, if something fails you are without a spring to support that corner until a replacement is in place or a repair is made

[apeters89]

Originally Posted by Ballistic Eng

After talking to the designer the main point of the hybrid was to produce an air shock that could be daily driven. We all know the tendencies of an air shock to have some quirky driving characteristics at speed. With the addition of the coils this allows you to better control the sprung mass of the vehicle. In doing this, you also increase the effective load carrying capacity of the air shock if you add the coil springs. So you still have the same ability to adjust the spring rate on the fly, but now the range of uses for such a product is increased by adding coils which will help prevent fade and excessively soft ride characteristics due to the very non-linear nature of the air shock. So we have

Coilovers
-Very tunable spring rate and damping, unmatched performance,
-Somewhat expensive initial cost and tuning costs

Hybrids
- Good performance on and off road, less expensive initial cost, easily tunable spring rate,
-Less tunable damping rate than a coilover, susceptible to fade if too much of the sprung mass is supported by N2 rather than coil springs

Air shocks
-Low initial cost, easily tunable spring rate
-Not recommended for daily driving, if something fails you are without a spring to support that corner until a replacement is in place or a repair is made

excellent info. This is what I was looking for!

[svt150j49]

im interested to see how mine do after the re-valving.

[sputnik40]

Good idea on starting the thread - have just about finished collecting parts for a 4 link (including some of your 2.63" forged joints and hardware) and have been contemplating going this route versus regular coil-overs.

Also, looking forward to the calculator you mention (anything helps). If only someone had the time to put together a real world experience d-base or listing of what other folks have done: vehicle types, modifications, weight, etc. - combined - with shock choice, valving, spring rates, etc. would be extremely helpful for those of us stuck in places where there aren't many folks running these types of setups...

[kiyul4130]

so after my reading no oil is involved in tuning these like a regular air shock.

[DrVic723]

Yes, you can tune with adding oil as with an air shock. - Jeff

[turbosniper1]

Jeff -
I sent you a reply PM about the 24" Hybrids and it had some more questions about them requesting measurements for eye to eye when compressed and extended. Then I also added a request for info about 20" Hybrids complete with hardware and coils, (basically the same way you quoted me for the 24"ers) and if you could also add the measurements for them as well please?? I am trying to get an idea of how much I am going to be looking at to get the truck sprung up if I don't win your giveaway!!! I am thinking the 20" x 2.5" in the front with the 24" x 2.5" in the rear.
Needless to say it would be a good chunk of $$ headed your way man!!!!!
Thanks for the quotes and the measurements! I look forward to the PM so that I may start planning!
- Matt

[Ballistic Eng]

I am working on getting you the measurements.

[Jtrickett3]

I emailed Jeff a while back about swapping out my standard Ballistic air shock bodies for threaded bodies to convert to a hybrid shock, i never heard back about a price on this, any info?

[Ballistic Eng]

Originally Posted by Jtrickett3

I emailed Jeff a while back about swapping out my standard Ballistic air shock bodies for threaded bodies to convert to a hybrid shock, i never heard back about a price on this, any info?

Pm'd

[ruefab]

These sound interesting!! There's a racing series up here that they set up a timed slalom course around a pit.Think these hybrids would work good for the fast stuff for short rips around a pit,like 2 or 3 minutes of really pounding on them.

I had air shocks and really like the way they worked but didn't like how you could only run 4" up travel and still keep the rig stable.Switched to Coilovers,but don't have the room for air bumps.Want to be able to keep the buggy good in the rocks and beable to go fast too.

These sound like the cats ass!!

What are your thoughts?

Rue

[Ballistic Eng]

If you run the coils over Nitrogen you will have a much more linear spring rate assuming you run at a lower air pressure on the hybrid than you would on an air shock. You will be able to run with more up travel on this setup and maintain stability as well. The only place a hybrid will fall short of a coilover is in the tunability of the damping characteristics and in long race situations where you will see some fade, but this can be greatly minimized by running low nitrogen pressures with higher coil spring rates to achieve your desired overall rate.

[Micka]

I emailed your sales address about getting some of these hybrids to Australia about a week ago, but I've no reply as yet.

Could you pls let me know what the approx freight costs would be to Brisbane, Australia? I'm after 2 of the 16" Hybrids. Spring rates to be decided.

Thanks.

Micka

[spork2367]

can i get these in a 8 or 10 inch version?

[Ballistic Eng]

Originally Posted by spork2367

can i get these in a 8 or 10 inch version?

I'm working on getting pricing for these. Will Pm you with further details.

[Scotch740]

So how dose having an air charge affect the spring frequency in these hybrids vs a standard coilover?

[apeters89]

Originally Posted by Scotch740

So how dose having an air charge affect the spring frequency in these hybrids vs a standard coilover?

You get the progressive rate of standard air shocks, with the heavier load capacity of a coil over. You also get the easy tunability of air shocks.

[Scotch740]

Originally Posted by apeters89

You get the progressive rate of standard air shocks, with the heavier load capacity of a coil over. You also get the easy tunability of air shocks.

I understand that, but that is not what I asked.

What I am asking is, how dose having an air charge affect the final shock frequency. If at all. Frequency being different than the spring/shock rate.

[Ballistic Eng]

Originally Posted by Scotch740

I understand that, but that is not what I asked.

What I am asking is, how dose having an air charge affect the final shock frequency. If at all. Frequency being different than the spring/shock rate.

Yes, the Nitrogen charge will change the spring rate as well as the damping coefficient. This is a coupled effect that an air shock inherently has, that a coilover does not. You can adjust the valving within the air shock to help get around it, however as soon as the Nitrogen pressure changes again then the damping is changing as well. Hybrids will allow you to change the spring rate independently of the damping, by changing the spring rate of the coil springs, so you have some more room for adjust ability based on the ratio of the spring rates due to the Nitrogen pressure and the coil springs. Because of this increased adjustability, you also get some more adjustability of the damping characteristics.

If you're asking about how it effects the wheel frequency then it does not have an effect due to damping. The natural frequency of the system is not effected by the damping coefficient, but it is affected by the spring rate as well as other things; therefore you are adjusting the frequency but not because you are changing the damping, it's because you are changing the spring rate. The steady state response of the wheel is affected by both the damping characteristics an the spring rates however.

[Scotch740]

So I can include the spring rate of the air charge by PSI/sq.in? Thus the resulting progressive rate due to the increase in PSI as it compresses. Correct? I'm sure its posted somewhere but whats the sq.in. of the hybrids for the compressive/extension sides?
Been reading up on my roommates race car performance in addition to some of the tech writeups on here. Starting to feel dangerous, or possibly just confused. Although Im pretty sure the compressed air is going to make little difference in the frequency when 95% of the weight is on the springs.

[Ballistic Eng]

Originally Posted by Scotch740;10598190[B

So I can include the spring rate of the air charge by PSI/sq.in? Yes you can include the spring value due to the Nitrogen charge resulting in a set of springs in parallel. Thus the resulting progressive rate due to the increase in PSI as it compresses. Yes, but the nature of the increase in spring rate in an air shock is highly non-linear. Correct? I'm sure its posted somewhere but whats the sq.in. of the hybrids for the compressive/extension sides?
Been reading up on my roommates race car performance in addition to some of the tech writeups on here. Starting to feel dangerous, or possibly just confused. Although Im pretty sure the compressed air is going to make little difference in the frequency when 95% of the weight is on the springs. Correct again, therefore I typically suggest a 70/30 split between coil springs and Nitrogen charge

To truly get the best tuning possibilities and damping characteristics a coilover is your best bet. They will allow you to tune the damping coefficient much better with specific valving changes.

However for 90% of rockcrawlers the speed is so slow that minute changes in valving rarely have a noticeable effect that the average driver can feel so the hybrid works well as it easily lets you change the spring rate which any driver will notice and you can get the damping to a happy medium pretty easily. Tuning shocks must be done on the vehicle, not on paper, but springs can be calculated fairly accurately on paper.

[Scotch740]

Originally Posted by Ballistic Eng

To truly get the best tuning possibilities and damping characteristics a coilover is your best bet. They will allow you to tune the damping coefficient much better with specific valving changes.

However for 90% of rockcrawlers the speed is so slow that minute changes in valving rarely have a noticeable effect that the average driver can feel so the hybrid works well as it easily lets you change the spring rate which any driver will notice and you can get the damping to a happy medium pretty easily. Tuning shocks must be done on the vehicle, not on paper, but springs can be calculated fairly accurately on paper.

Appreciate the info and you all setting up this section for us to ask questions!!!

Now could you do another 10% off sale I got a big shopping list